Rose Madrid-Swetman

— Random Thoughts, Stories of Life, and Questions about the Journey —


April 16, 2008

An Evening with Rob Bell, Doug Pagitt and Todd Hunter

Category: All Posts,Stories of Life,women – Rose – 11:00 pm

Last night to finish out the inter-spiritual day of the Seeds of Compassion gathering, Jim Henderson asked us to host a reception at the Vineyard. We had a bit of a party. The band led by Kelly Carpenter was awesome. My experience with Jim is he is like Oprah, he loves to give people a voice…he had a couple of hours and a bunch of people he wanted to give “stage” time. He planned several short, 20 minute segments. He asked me to lead a conversation with Rob Bell about women in ministry.
The night began with Rob sharing thoughts from his new book. I think Eugene has a good synopsis here.

Next up was our conversation. Let me begin by saying I had a conversation with Rob in the afternoon about where I wanted to go with the conversation. I told him I was going to introduce the idea through the lens that for those that have changed their theological position we had to now look at how to do the structural changes to give women access. I asked him if he would agree that when you are dealing with structural change you are dealing with “who” holds the power in the systems you are trying to gain equilibrium …he agreed. I then asked him if he would agree that in our church tradition (Evangelical) or post Evangelical that power lies with white males…to which he totally agreed. I asked him if he would be comfortable with me “naming” the power structure and more specifically pointing out that he was a person within the system with power and influence to which he said he was cool with.

When the conversation happened, I found Rob to be nothing but kind. He told his story. When he stepped into a pastoring Mars Hill Bible Church (not Mars Hill Seattle) and how at the time they had an all male eldership. The church held the theological position that women could not hold positions of authority. Rob studied the issue and came to the conclusion that their view was theologically wrong. He changed it, lost elders and folks that did not agree left the church. Today there are women in all areas of leadership in the church. Rob did a great job communicating his heart and what he had done in his own church to empower women in every level of leadership. He said that he used to hear the old argument that there are two sides to this theological position but now he says there are not two sides, if you hold to the position that oppresses (probably my word) women you are just wrong.

When I asked him how he could use his influence beyond his local church to give women space he seemed to not fully connect. I gave him the example of how Jim Henderson tries to include women in every event that Off the Map hosts. Sharing the stage or the mic is a way to change the systemic issue of the male echo chamber in most corners of the Christian church. I asked him if he could use his influence to give women a voice in the same way as he has access to a very large stage.

He told another story of a young girl in his church and then he told me that we (women) should not go where we are not welcome. That last statement sounds different then what he said. He was saying, you are too sacred, don’t waste your time where the door is not open, which I totally get.

My point wasn’t so much that (I think this is where the disconnect happened, I probably was not clear enough) I wanted to go places women were not welcome as it was that women seeing other women in visible areas of leadership is vital to change the system. At the point I knew we were not going the same direction (not because we were adversarial) I changed gears and introduced a young woman from Canada. Jen is in her 20’s, single and the lead pastor of a Four Square Church ( a denomination stared by a woman) in Powell River B.C. She intentionally moved into low-income housing and works part-time at Starbucks. She is a smart, thoughtful leader that is truly serving Jesus in the way He has called and gifted her. Jen’s story was a great illustration of the point I was trying to make. Almost all of her mentors were and are male. She doesn’t have a problem with that, but she would like a few females as well…she just didn’t know where to find them.

I believe we need men and women working together to bring leadership in the body of Christ. I told Rob I wasn’t interested in women’s initiatives that did not include men. For me this is about a theology of the Kingdom. Men and women working together in every level of leadership in the church. IMHO women’s initiatives made up of only women tend to ghettoize women.

After our segment I had a conversation with Rob and his friend in the hall. We talked about several issues related to women. He thought our time went well. As we were talking a man approached us and thanked us for the conversation. He said his wife was called to be a church planter but they were in a denomination that would not allow it. He was encouraged by our talk that she needed to be able to pursue her calling. Now this is what I am talking about. If men that hold power would include women, women like Jen who can say what they are doing, women who are writers, church planters, scholars, etc. I know that something will be set in motion when men and women hear the stories.

I appreciate Rob having the conversation and being part of the solution. I think he is brilliant. I applaud Jim Henderson for always thinking about how to make space for women.

It was fun to meet Doug Pagitt, I’ve heard a lot about him. He was kind enough to let me use his rental car for the day. I met so many interesting people yesterday. It was a great party and now…I need to get some sleep and come tomorrow catch up on course work.

Dalai Lama Archbishop Tutu Prayer Breakfast

Category: All Posts,Prayers,Stories of Life – Rose – 5:21 pm

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HT: Doug Pagitt

Rob Bell, Dalai Lama and Desmond Tutu

Category: All Posts,Stories of Life – Rose – 11:21 am

What an incredible 24 hours. Several people came to Seattle for the last day of the Seeds of Compassion gathering followed by an Off the Map event hosted at the Vineyard. Monday evening we hosted a spaghetti dinner at the Vineyard for several friends that came in from out of town. It is always a blast to hang out with Todd, David, Helen, Randy, Pam, Nancy and so many others. Just a shout out that Todd Hunter and David Ruis are two of the most respectable, smart guys I know. They encourage, inspire and are devoted to figuring out what this Kingdom life is about. Really, really good guys.

Yesterday was the final day of the five day event and was focused on spirituality. A group of us attended the prayer breakfast with the Dalai Lama and Desmond Tutu. We were one table away from two Nobel Peace Prize recipients. What an incredible experience. And so fun to watch the two of them interact in moments almost like children, giggling, joking, poking fun. At one point The Dalai Lama looked at Desmond Tutu for a few moments, you were getting the idea he was going to say something profound and then with a serious tone, he said something like, “I’ve noticed you have put on a few pounds” the room erupted in laughter. Just a side note here. I met so many young people yesterday that had never heard of or knew about Desmond Tutu. This is a sad commentary. We are not even twenty years out from the apartheid of South Africa and our young people don’t know the name Desmond Tutu?

The conversation between the two of them and for us sitting in the room was powerful. I appreciated the Dalai Lama’s comments, I found him humble, personable, wise…but when Desmond Tutu spoke, there was an incredible spiritual authority that you know comes from a very deep place…from his life’s journey. When it was over I wanted to go sit in silence somewhere for a few hours. Instead, we got in our cars and jetted over to the University District for the morning panel discussion. There was two interspiritual panel sessions on Spirituality and Youth Dialogue. Rob Bell and Doug Pagitt were on the panels. I only attended the first, with Rob Bell and I think about 15 others including the Dalai Lama and Desmond Tutu, and representatives from the Jewish, Islam, Catholic, and several other traditions. It was really good, just such a large group that panelists did not get much time to develop their thought. I enjoyed listening to so many voices and have to say it was a bit disorienting to hear from so many people of different faiths organizing their lives around what we as followers of Christ would say is the Kingdom. I have a lot to process.

We then went to the Seattle Center where Jim Henderson hosted a smaller panel titled, Evangelicals and InterSpiritual Friends: Recovering the Compassionate Tradition of Jesus. Rob Bell, Doug Pagitt, Todd Hunter, Nancy Murphy, Andrew Himes, Sunil Sardar, Rabbi Anson Laytner abd Dr. Ingrid Mattson,the Director of Islamic Chaplaincy and Professor at the Macdonald Center for Islamic Studies and Christian-Muslim Relations at Hartford Seminary in Hartford, Connecticut. This was another eye opening experience. To listen to intelligent people who are living out devoted lives from different faith traditions view Christians within the framework of a mutual, respectful dialogue was amazing. Jim was on his game in this session, he asked probing questions that I would imagine caused everyone to do some thinking.

After a long day we ended up back at the Vineyard where Off the Map hosted An Evening with Rob Bell, Todd Hunter, Doug Pagitt and others…
It was more like a reception with Hor’duerves, wine, and live music. VCC knows how to throw a party! We will have the podcasts up soon.

More about that in my next post.

April 12, 2008

Speaking of Oppression

Category: All Posts,Leadership,women – Rose – 9:30 am

Over at Kingdom Grace there is a conversation about Mark Driscoll’s Doctrine versus the Shack. I have not read the Shack. Nor do I need to in order to comment on the absurdity of Mark Driscoll’s rant. What kind of an environment are you cultivating when (you have the “largest church in the most unchurched city in the United States”) and you are telling people what they can and cannot read? Here are a few of the comments from Kingdom Grace’s blog:

    Speaking for myself, I see him as a christian brother, but I am also aware that we view faith and doctrine very differently. My criticism for Mark isn’t based on the difference in doctrine. It is based on the fact that he repeatedly calls those he disagrees with heretics.

    I do believe Mark is wrong about the trinity. The Reformed camp has latched on to a hierarchical view of the trinity as a foundation for hierarchy in marriage and church authority. In my opinion the mutuality of the trinity is to be our model for relationship.

    This is an area where dialog and discussion isn’t likely to produce agreement. Ideally there would be tolerance for differences of beliefs on secondary issues. Many people have not experienced this kind of tolerance or respect from those in the more fundamental side of the Reformed church world.


I agree with Grace. I consider him a chrisitan brother, I disagree with his theology. It is not a theology of the Kingdom. He continually presents his positions as “the” christian world view. His view of God and doctrines is what fuels the church being on the wrong side of justice issues throughout history (see my last post). Bad theology is an evil taskmaster. The sexism that continually pervades his presentation of Scripture is an injustice to women.

    I’ve observed Mark’s tactics often enough to recognize the pattern.

    1. Describe the problem in technical theological terms to give intellectual weight to your position. (pride)

    2. Declare the opposing view sin in order to scare people from considering its validity. (fear)

    3. Label those who follow the other belief heretics. (shame)

    4. Thus appointing yourself as the authority and guardian of truth. (control)

Grace nails it. This is a pattern of abuse. When you have oppression you have an abuse of power. When will those that listen to this week after week either get up and walk out or overthrow the oppressive regime? When will they wake up to the story of the Kingdom? When will we by the power of the Spirit live into our Story….”In Christ’s family there can be no division into Jew or non-Jew, slave and free, male and female.”

April 4, 2008

Sometimes We (the Church) Just Get it Wrong

Category: All Posts,Leadership,women – Rose – 3:59 pm

From Divided by Faith
Evangelical Religion and the Problem of Race in America
By Emerson and Smith

Why Christians Should Support Slavery
Key reasons advanced by southern church leaders.

Many Southern Christians felt that slavery, in one Baptist minister’s words, “stands as an institution of God.” Here’s why:

Biblical reasons
Abraham, the “father of faith,” and all the patriarchs held slaves without God’s disapproval (Gen 21:9-10).
Canaan, Ham’s son, was made a slave to his brothers (Gen 9:24-27).
The Ten Commandments mention slavery twice, showing God’s implicit acceptance of it (Ex 20:10,17).
Slavery was widespread throughout the Roman world, and yet Jesus never spoke against it.
The apostle Paul specifically commanded slaves to obey their masters (Eph 6:5-8).
Paul returned a runaway slave, Philemon, to his master (Philemon 12).

Charitable and evangelistic reasons
Slavery removes people from a culture that “worshipped the devil, practiced witchcraft and sorcery” and other evils.
Slavery brings heathens to a Christian land where they can hear the gospel. Christian masters provide religious instruction for their slaves.
Under slavery, people are treated with kindness, as many northern visitors can attest.
It is in ‘slaveholders’ own interest to treat their slaves well.

Social reasons
Just as women are called to play a subordinate role (Eph 5:22; 1Tim 2:11-15), so slaves are stationed by God in their place.
Slavery is God’s means of protecting and providing for an inferior race (suffering the “curse of Ham” in Gen 9:25 or even the punishment of Cain in Gen 4:12).
Abolition would lead to slave uprisings, bloodshed, and anarchy. Consider the mob’s “rule of terror” during the French Revolution.

Political reasons
Christians are to obey civil authorities, and those authorities permit and protect slavery.
The church should concentrate on spiritual matters, not political ones.
Those who support abolition are, in James H. Thornwell’s words, “atheists, socialists, communist [and] red republicans.”

In many ways I hear some of the same reasons to keep women from all God has put in their hearts to do and be…

April 1, 2008

Reflections from Evanston

Category: All Posts,Stories of Life,women – Rose – 9:21 pm

I am home now…got in late last night. My flight out of Chicago O’Hare (like tons of other American Airlines flights) was delayed about 7 hours. So much happened Wednesday to yesterday. I don’t have time to capture it all in writing but here goes some highlights:

    Di Leman kicked off Wednesday night. She skillfully communicated huge concepts, women, kingdom theology…she was great
    Thora Anderson taught twice…she was articulate, sharp and funny. Great stuff on leadership.
    Cindy Nicholson – exceptional – what else would you get from Cindy? Cindy is a powerful leader, what a gift she is…
    Grace Schmelzer’s talk was inspirational and practical. I loved her honesty and passion.
    Julia Pickerill – OMGosh – what can you say about Julia – hilarious, dazzling, she knocked it out of the park…she used the “v” word…
    Cheryl and Ellen told their story…their history through some tough relational waters, an unbelievable story of reconciliation…they gave women an imagination through their story to believe healing and reconciliation though a process is attainable even when it seems too broken…Cheryl and Ellen are incredible leaders
    Teresa Diaz-Maldonado – what a powerhouse, the racial reconciliation that happened in the room as a result of her story could not have been planned.
    Adey Wassink – brilliant, just brilliant. Adey was inspirational and more, she called out dreams and gave everyone in the room permission to go for it, no holds bar, if it’s in your heart to do, go for it.

I have not even scratched the surface on how powerfully amazing the women above through their teaching, sharing their own stories and journey and through each of their unique perspectives impacted the women at this conference.

The band and worship leaders simply rocked it…Leah Martens, Rebecca Alvarez and Sheena Hunter were incredible…gospel choir and all…

All the other women I met, Verity, Sara, Kaitlin, Esther and more…astounding young women who will make this world a better place because of their love of Jesus.

I had a great time seeing Amy again. It was so great to meet some of her team and spend some time together.

Evelyn and the gang from Texas are the best!

So much more but I will leave it here…

If you were there and have any thoughts or reflections I would love to hear them.

All in all a huge “thank you” to everyone for all their work at making the time seamless – thank you for creating such a welcoming, inspirational and warm space.

March 28, 2008

Women

Category: All Posts,Leadership,Stories of Life – Rose – 3:09 pm

I am blown away by the number of women, young, middle age and older that I have met here in Chicago that are doing and have dreams of living their lives organized around the Kingdom of God. I feel like this has been the best kept secret in the universe…hundreds of amazing women. Since the Vineyard has shifted to officially recognize women in every level of leadership…it is like the floodgate has opened…I am sobered and awed at the women I have met here. They are from all over the United States…I have met future theologians, scholars, pastors, small group leaders, future founders of non-profits, church planters… you name it they are here and they are an unstoppable force…

Simply amazing…

March 23, 2008

Easter

Category: All Posts – Rose – 5:29 pm

He is Risen
He is Risen Indeed!
Our Easter worship gathering was great…great music, great people followed by brunch…plenty of food and good company.

Easter at the Vineyard

March 16, 2008

International Women’s Day – Late

Category: All Posts,Leadership,Stories of Life – Rose – 6:19 pm

Last week was International Women’s Day. In 2006, Rachelle organized a gridblog entitled, “Dismantling Patriarchy”, (I was in Thailand officiating a wedding at time) which I participated in. This year I didn’t participate because I have been too sick and too behind in my studies. If I am going to take time to write I have to write for school. I have been too sick to concentrate on my studies or much else…in fact I have spent more time in the last two weeks watching T.V. than I have in years…it doesn’t take much energy to watch T.V…
While reading through some of the posts, I found I really resonated with Julie Clawson’s post.
From her post:

    There are many issues that I try to be open minded about. I respect differences of opinion in theology and politics and disdain single issue voting, but this is a deal breaking issue for me. If a church sees women as inferior and denies them their voice, I honestly could not join as a member of that community. I could not worship week after week alongside those that denied my full humanity. I don’t deny their faith or anything, but it’s not worth it to me to subject myself to such life-denying forces. Others with far more patience are attempting to bring hope to those situations, but (at least for now) I can’t be a part of that world.

I have to say I agree with her. It is a justice issue for me, I am respectful of difference, but I couldn’t attend a church week after week that denied my right to be who I am created to be.

March 14, 2008

Change – What does it mean?

Category: All Posts,Leadership,Questions about the Journey – Rose – 6:36 pm

I don’t think many people would disagree on times are changing. The question to followers of Jesus becomes, what does it mean to be faithful in our time, what does it mean for the church to navigate the waters of societal change?

“Every few hundred years in Western society there occurs a sharp transformation…within a few short decades, society rearranges itself—its worldview; its basic values; its social and political structure; its arts; its key institutions…fifty years later, there is a new world and the people born then cannot even imagine the world in which their grandparents lived and into which their own parents were born. We are currently living through such a transformation.”

Peter Drucker. Post-Capitalist Society, New York: Harper’s Business. 1993. p. 1.